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Bernanke to brief Congress on the economy

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Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke is scheduled to brief Congress Tuesday on the economy, which has been walloped by high energy prices and fallout from the housing slump and credit crunch.

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{"commentId":2200397,"authorDomain":"theseetons"}

The "run" on Banks today is a rerun as the 1920's which caused the great crash. In today's world it has started when the "banks" were allowed again to be all to all people. For 40-years they were banks only. That is why the Fannie May Bank was started in the 30". Now we have worthless paper in the banks that is causing them to be upside down. We are at risk for a crash or we will have a greater down turn in dollar value. Both are bad for the family that is trying to put food on the table.

This was caused by both sides in congress. They knew how bad it was and as long as the stock markets grew it was O.K. Well, history and everyday life shows what goes up does come down at some time. Now they are running around saying everything is fine and have some great lies about how this downturn happened in the banks.

When a bank loans money it needs some equity to back the loan. These days the bank bet on the "come" because the equity was coming next month-and-years later--the loan value when up. If the loan became bad it was O.K. as the paper "come" equity covered it. Well the chicken have home and they have bad paper. It was like paper that was worth more ever next day. Some what like flipping homes or rolling dice. Only now they are flipping value down in major markets and rolling carps.
And congress will not change this equity problem before the election. Well 2009 will become a hard year for all as "they" fix it.

{"commentId":2200397,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"theseetons"}
    Reply#51 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:41 PM EDT
    {"commentId":2200409,"authorDomain":"dlaidig"}

    So how's all this unrestricted "free market" economy workin' out for ya. I absolutely love this. The is no more telling tale on the Conservatives than their rush to corporate welfare. We lived through the Nixon years, we'll make it through these bozos.

    I love the concept that if yer not Conservative, you ain't patriotic! What a bunch 'o bubbas!

    {"commentId":2200409,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"dlaidig"}
      Reply#52 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:42 PM EDT
      {"commentId":2200415,"authorDomain":"Peter17"}

      This was actually a pretty good hearing once you got by the speeches, especially after Bernanke was joined by the Sec. of Treasury and head of the SEC. Political bickering was minimal. They were having frank discussions about what everyone thought was happening and what Congress might do to help. At least it was an effort that avoided the two sides taking diametrically opposed positions.

      One point was made clear that I think many have missed in the media reports. While plans are being put in place to assist the GSEs if needed, no "bailout" has been implemented and it is hoped that none is necessary. The attempt is to try and calm jumpy markets without any real action being taken.

      While I assume meetings like this take place behind closed doors, it was nice to see one in public.

      {"commentId":2200415,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"Peter17"}
        Reply#53 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:43 PM EDT
        {"commentId":2200537,"authorDomain":"jumpingnots"}

        Folks i am an old fart and WWII veteran and also grew up in the depression years so i know first hand what bad times are.It seems like i have to go through this one more time,and that makes me mad and disgusted like hell,that i have to go through this on my age again.That old and still ripping me of with all kind of taxes each year.This bailout of these big cats is unconstitutional,they should let them rot in hell.
        I am so sick and tired from this Bush administration and the current house and senate,it's time for this country to free us from this bunch of there own pocket fillers,we need to start all over again with some young people in office who will work for all Americans.Right now America is dragged down the drain and it will take many years to be able to come back to the point we were 8 years ago if we ever will. It sure does not look good folks I know that for sure, but Bush and Bernanke are telling us there is not much wrong it's just one of those temporary problems,what a bunch of lyers,Send them packing ASAP before I kick the bucket.

        {"commentId":2200537,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"jumpingnots"}
          Reply#54 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:02 PM EDT
          {"commentId":2200597,"authorDomain":"thomasfrisby"}

          We are near the greatest economic disaster of all time, and Bush/Cheney are playing their fiddles and countuing on their investments in the oil industry.

          {"commentId":2200597,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"thomasfrisby"}
            Reply#55 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:12 PM EDT
            {"commentId":2200748,"authorDomain":"taniac"}

            There is money to fix the economy, believe it or not. There are corporations out there (excluding the GMs and Starbucks of the world) who rake in profits but don't pay a cent in taxes, thanks to countries such as Bermuda who encourage tax evasion as a business strategy. As things are now, it's the middle class and small business owners who are bent so far over that south is the new north.

            Sever the link between big business and politics, and see how fast things change.

            {"commentId":2200748,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"taniac"}
              Reply#56 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:36 PM EDT
              {"commentId":2200762,"authorDomain":"m-houglin"}

              Message 1 of 2

              Topic: US Government Fiscal Policy
              General Purpose: The purpose of this speech is to persuade my audience that our government should use more Fiscal Policy and regulation to control our economy specifically regarding personal financial matters such as home mortgages, unsecured loans, credit card interest rates, and unsecure debt.
              Specific Purpose: To persuade my audience to agree that our government should use more fiscal policy and regulation to improve the sustainability of our economy.
              Introduction
              Many families have recently lost their homes. Across America, many homes are empty and up for sale in the weak housing market. Mortgage lending institutions and Realtors are also having difficulty in this struggling market. Perhaps you may know a family who is struggling with high mortgage payments and unsecured debt. Today we will learn why Fiscal Policy is important to the health of our economy. We will review the difference between Fiscal and Monetary policy and the affects both have on the economy. We will understand why Fiscal Policy is important to individual families and how we can urge our government that change is necessary. Recently my best friends faced a very difficult situation. When they purchased a house several years ago, they did not realize that their interest rate was only a low introductory offer. They thought they had they best deal at the time for their home mortgage. Their mortgage payment was appropriate for their budget.
              To their dismay they discovered two months ago that their "introductory" interest rate ended. They were now faced with an adjustable rate mortgage well above the 7% introductory rate. Their interest rate was now over 13%! They were in danger of loosing their home due to the resulting mortgage payment increase.
              In the College of Business program at Ivy Tech I have learned the difference between Fiscal and Monetary Policy. The course material has enabled me to understand basic economic indicators and how our economy functions. Though there are many debatable opinions on our economy, my goal is to communicate what I have learned and why this is important to all families in our country.
              Now we will learn why Fiscal Policy change is important to improving the current situation with our economy. We will learn what we can do to persuade our government that a change in Fiscal Policy and regulation is necessary. We will then review why Fiscal Policy change is more effective than using Monetary Policy to improve the sustainability of our economy.

              Body (Need)
              I.Our economy is struggling among the emerging global markets.
              a.Though our economy continues to grow, we are assuming an unsurpassed amount of national debt.
              i.Per Reuters our national debt in 2001 was 5.6 trillion dollars.
              ii.Today, our publically held U.S. debt is an amazing 9 trillion dollars.
              iii.This represents an increase of 38% over the last six years.
              iv. Per the Canadian Economy Online, in 2001 their national debt was 520 billion dollars.
              v.Today, Canada's national debt is 482 billion dollars.
              vi.For Canada this represents a decrease of 7% over the last six years.
              b.Many middle and low income families are struggling to maintain balance with the rising cost of living and shrinking household income growth.
              i.Per the US Department of Commerce, bureau of economic analysis, personal income has grown at 0.4%.
              ii.Per the U.S. department of Labor, the consumer price index has increased an average of 2.6% annually from 2001 through 2006.
              iii.A house which cost $100,000 in 2001 will cost $117,724 today.
              iv.Per US census data, in 2006 dollars, household income for 2001 was $37,940 for the second fifth percent of households.
              v.Today, household income is $37,774 for the second fifth percent of households.
              vi.This represents a decline of $166 over 5 years in 2006 dollars for the second fifth percent of households.
              vii.NOTE: Present Census Bureau Household Income visual aid.
              viii.This situation is often referred to as the widening gap between the upper and lower class as the middle class fades from existence.
              c.Some families are now faced with making difficult financial decisions.
              i.Cost of living, many families are now struggling.
              ii.Paying for higher home heating and transportation costs while reducing spending in other areas.
              iii.Difficult or impossible to save money.
              iv.Rely on unsecured debt such us credit cards or personal loans not only for purchasing items needed in an emergency but often for day to day living.
              v.As consumers spend less, other areas of our economy will slow.
              d. The weak housing market is possibly the best evidence of the situation with our economy.
              i.Adjustable rate mortgages, increased mortgage payments.
              ii.Now our Federal Reserve is beginning to take action.
              iii.Per the latest census bureau data, 2.7% of homes in the United States are now vacant.
              iv.In 2001, 1.75% of homes were vacant.
              v.New housing construction is now at an all time low.
              vi.Recently purchased a new home, the house has depreciated at a rate faster than a newly purchased automobile.
              vii.As the housing market continues to slow, it has a growing impact.
              e.Our unsecured debt surpasses any other nation.
              i.As our debt to personal income rises, many Americans are saving less.
              ii.We continue to use high interest credit cards.
              iii.It seems some companies are only interested in collecting the interest on high outstanding balances.
              iv.Some credit card companies will raise the available credit, minimum monthly payment.
              v.Many consumers are unfamiliar with the perils of high credit card debt.
              vi.There are many advertisements targeting consumers.
              vii.According to Peter Gumbel from Fortune Magazine and CNNmoney.com, the U.S. has $915 billion dollars in consumer credit card debt.
              viii.This exceeds Canada's national debt.
              ix.Week housing market, many consumers are unable to secure home equity lines of credit to pay off outstanding credit card debt.
              x.The major credit companies are now preparing for record losses as consumers are beginning to default on payments.
              xi.In the credit card industry a default is a total loss.
              xii.There is no security to back up the loan.
              Body (Plan)
              II.Now we will learn what we can do to persuade our government that a change in Fiscal Policy is necessary and why Monetary Policy is not as affective.
              a.Our government uses Monetary Policy to make quick improvements on our economy.
              i.These types of changes quickly and effectively impact our economy.
              b.The two types of Monetary Policy are tight money and easy money.
              i.These policies are used to either quickly remove money from our economy when it is growing too fast or to quickly put more money into the economy when it is growing too slow.
              c.When the Federal Reserve uses tight money policy, the goal is to reduce the amount of money available to our economy.
              i.When using this policy the government will raise the discount rate.
              ii.This is the rate charged for financial institutions to borrow money from Federal Reserve banks.
              iii.The Federal Reserve will then sell bonds.
              iv.This removes additional currency from our economy.
              v.The Federal Reserve will then raise the Legal Reserve Requirement.
              vi.This is the minimum amount a bank must keep from each deposit.
              vii.If the LRR is raised, banks are unable to lend as much money from each deposit.
              viii.Tight money policy is typically used to control exploding growth in our economy.
              d.Our Federal Reserve uses easy money policy to encourage growth in our economy.
              i.When using the easy money policy, the Federal Reserve will lower the discount rate.
              ii.The discount rate has been relatively low over the past several years.
              iii.The Federal Reserve will then lower the Legal Reserve Requirement.
              iv.This allows banks to loan more money from each deposit made.
              v.After lowering the discount rate and legal reserve requirement, the Federal Reserve will then buy bonds to put additional currency into our economy.
              vi.If the reserve takes all three actions at the same time, our economy is not doing very well.
              e.Monetary Policy is effective for controlling the quarterly ups and downs in our economy.
              f.Monetary Policy is not as effective for controlling the long term health of our economy.
              g.This is why Fiscal Policy is important to long term regulation of our economy.
              h.For similar reasons, Fiscal Policy takes much longer to implement than Monetary Policy.
              i.Fiscal Policy is our governments spending and tax collection policy.
              i.By using Fiscal Policy, our government determines where to spend money in our economy.
              ii.This impacts different areas of our economy.
              iii.Many of the areas of spending are well known.
              iv.These include education, NASA, the Census Bureau and the Centers for Disease Control to name a few.
              v.By controlling taxes, Fiscal Policy is one method that may be used to increase disposable income.
              vi.By controlling the distribution of taxes, our government can encourage growth in certain sectors of our economy.
              j.Fiscal Policy is much more complicated and the impact on our economy takes much longer to measure and understand.
              k.Though this type of policy seems more cumbersome, it has always played a key role in economic stability.
              l.By contacting our local state representatives, legislators and congressional offices we can let our government know that change is necessary.
              i.We can urge our government to use fair taxation policy.
              ii.We should encourage our government to increase spending in areas that will have more benefit for the lower and middle class families.
              m.In addition we should urge our government that more regulation is critical in the mortgage lending and credit industry.
              i.Adjustable Rate Mortgages must be closely scrutinized.
              ii.Financial institutions must be required to clearly disclose the terms and conditions of home mortgages.
              iii.Credit companies must be responsible for their lending practices.
              iv.Interest rates should be reasonable and clearly disclosed.
              v.The amount of available credit offered must be closely scrutinized.
              vi.We can urge our government to regulate unsecured debt and require minimum payoff plans that are feasible and appropriate.
              vii.The amount of credit offered by financial institutions must be reasonable for the income of a family.
              Body (Practicality)
              III.Now will then review why Fiscal Policy change is more effective than using Monetary Policy to improve our economy.
              a.Perhaps many of you are very responsible with your budget and have a strong understanding of finance.
              i.You may be knowledgeable of the dangers of ARM's and credit card debt.
              ii.Unfortunately, many families in our country are not very familiar with finance.
              iii.Credit card companies' advertisements target many families.
              b.Our choice is to trust individual consumers to be responsible with their credit or to ensure our government protects unaware consumers.
              i.Would you trust an unknowledgeable family with your budget?
              ii.We all have a responsibility to ensure our economy offers sustainable growth for all current and future generations.
              c.The short term solutions of Monetary Policy are only affective for a short time.
              i.Fiscal Policy change and improved regulation is necessary to ensure families do not fall prey to financial institutions seeking only long term interest paying consumers.
              d.The principal for any financial institution is no longer important.
              i.Mortgage institutions no longer want foreclosed homes.
              ii.Credit card companies are not concerned about unsecured debt.
              iii.The goal of these institutions is to profit from the interest.
              iv.A staggering amount of money in our country is now used for intangible interest payments.
              v.As the interest becomes a more valuable asset, the value of purchased homes and durable goods continues to decline.

              e.I will now summarize the importance of what we have discussed today. Conclusion
              We have learned why our economy is struggling among the emerging global markets. Now we know what we can do to persuade our government that a change in Fiscal Policy and regulation is necessary. We now know why Fiscal Policy change is more effective than using Monetary Policy to improve the long term stability of our economy. Today we all have a responsibility to ensure our economy offers sustainable growth for all families and future generations in our country. Together we all must take responsibility for an economy which once belonged to the consumers. We must urge our government that change is necessary.
              Consumers must be protected from scrupulous lending institutions. Credit companies must be regulated and offer reasonable, feasible terms and conditions. The health of our economy affects all families in our country regardless of their knowledge in finance.
              Today, I encourage everyone to become familiar with basic finance. Use caution when purchasing a home and seek legal representation if necessary. Do not become the victim of scrupulous credit companies. Our government offers much information on finance. Please visit the various web sites such as () to learn more about finance. Together we can all make a difference. Be persistent when contacting our legislators, congressman and state representatives. We all have a responsibility to ensure future generations are not responsible for the debt we create today.

              {"commentId":2200762,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"m-houglin"}
                Reply#57 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:38 PM EDT
                {"commentId":2200816,"authorDomain":"m-houglin"}

                Message 2 of 2

                Preface
                Federal Social Security Act - Part of the recovery efforts after the Great Depression included the establishment of a Social Security Act. This was due to workers depleted life savings and the scarcity of available jobs. This Act establishes a system of benefits for retired workers and a system for unemployment insurance administered by federal and state government. In 1965 amendments included disability insurance and the Medicare program. This act includes the OASDI (Old-Age, Survivor, and Disability Insurance) tax on employment earnings. OASDI provides retirement income, income to survivors of deceased workers, and income to disabled workers. (Martocchio)
                As advances in medical technology and health increase the life expectancies of populations worldwide, the problem of providing social services to retirees is not isolated to the U.S. many established countries are now struggling with reform. Even developing countries are beginning to struggle with supporting retirees.
                I.What Changes would you implement to enhance the existing program?
                According to White House ( accessed 4/23/08) the Social Security program will be "bankrupt" by 2017. At that time, the program will begin paying out more than it is collecting from taxes. The program currently supports 90% of total income for retirees age 65 and older. Dramatic change is necessary for continuation of social security. The existing program will no longer be a viable government service after 2017.
                Per data available form the 2008 OASDI Trustees Report ( accessed 5/4/08); in 1950 there were 16 workers to support each beneficiary of social security. Currently only 3.3 workers are support each beneficiary. This year the "Baby Boomer" generation will begin to retire. Along with increasing life expectancy and schooled benefit increases the program will fail. When today's youngest workers reach retirement age, there will be only 2 workers supporting each beneficiary. If the current system continues without any reform, the benefits for a 30 year old worker will be reduced by 27% when they reach normal retirement age.
                The existing system must continue to support current and future retirees. The program must then continue to receive funding for these retirees to receive benefits. Our proposal would be to implement a plan to phase out the existing social security system while continuing benefits and transition to a new system capable of long term sustainability in uncertain economic conditions by 2015. For an economy currently transcending into recession along with escalating inflation and oil prices, additional taxation would be very detrimental.
                II.Address the present regulation guidelines.
                Under the current system, the only viable resolutions are dramatically higher payroll taxes by 2041 (approximately 16% for social security), borrowing $200 billion a year by 2027, severe benefit cuts and unrealistically increasing the retirement age. These solutions are not feasible and may potentially cause much harm to an ailing economy. By 2033 the program will be negative $300 billion dollars short per year. For workers currently in the mid twenties reaching, retirement age by 2041, the program will be officially bankrupt.
                Some proposals for reform offered by congress include limiting benefits for the wealthy, indexing benefits to prices instead of wages, increasing the retirement age, and changes to the benefit formulate to discourage early retirement. A very controversial reform is privatizing social security. This would allow workers to voluntarily contribute to personal retirement accounts. The problem with this approach is that it is voluntary so if workers do not contribute to a retirement plan, the government would eventually need to support them regardless.

                According to The New York Times ( accessed 4/23/08) Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan cautiously endorsed a new proposal to eliminate the existing payroll tax system. The new system would instead place a tax on spending. This is referred to as the "Consumption Tax" system. Chairman Greenspan then reluctantly refused to promote a plan to replace the income tax with a national sales tax while testifying at a Presidential advisory panel. Instead Mr. Greenspan suggested tax free savings accounts which would not be taxed until the money is actually spent.
                The goal of the Consumption Tax system would be to encourage savings and capital formation. This would begin to add "value" to our weak economy. Such a plan may then lead to higher wages, productivity and improved output. In 2005 debate began regarding simultaneous reform for social security and our federal tax system. President Bush does not support the Consumption Tax and combining social security reform in the same package. The other hurdle is that Democrats do not support the consumption tax. This is why any attempt for reform is currently stalled.
                III.How would you alter the regulation to make the over-all design of the program more effective?
                From our research, it seems the best solution is a combination of sweeping tax reform and simultaneous social security reform. Our current tax system is crippling our economy. The social security tax is funding a program that will eventually be bankrupt. We support the Consumption Tax along with social security reform. This would allow the U.S. to compete with the global economic climate for many centuries to come. An additional benefit would be the elimination of filing taxes annually and the reduction of allocated resources to support the traditional payroll tax system.
                This may also allow the United States to achieve balanced trade for the first time in decades while enabling a comparative advantage over economies driven by cheap labor. Such a tax system would not only promote savings, it would also discourage inflation. This would also allow the Federal Reserve to place more direct control over the velocity of our economy. Velocity is currently controlled by borrowing. A higher level of control would be directly taxing spending. Our government would then be able to quickly adapt to changing economic conditions.
                In addition public sentiment is growing because many beneficiaries who have never paid into the system continue to receive benefits. Many workers today paying the social security tax will never see any return on their investment. For this reason, many citizens are in favor of personal retirement accounts closely regulated by the government. What each individual contributes to the system is what each individual may receive in returns.
                Other individuals surveyed indicated they prefer a flat rate return approach. Everyone would receive the same benefit regardless of pass contributions. Chris Gunther stated "I feel that people should be able to do whatever they want with the money that they make. I guarantee that the unemployment rate would go way down. If people don't want to start a retirement fund for themselves, than that is their problem".
                Maria Pedigo stated "For many years now we have known that the sources for our social security are becoming scarce. And as a result of bad budgeting, our nation is going to suffer. Instead of spending the money that so many of us put in for retirement on other issues it should be spent on retirement only. One thought is maybe the cap on taxes where those who make over $90,000 are relieved from paying more taxes should be lifted and that every dollar earned should be taxed just like every dollar spent is". The age for retirement was initially set for age 65 in 1955; it was bumped up in 1983 to the age of 67 now they want to bump it up again to 69. 28 years before the first bump up and 25years later they want to bump it up does that mean in 22 more years that they will want to raise the age again? Where is the limit? This may have slowed down the depletion but it is not a permanent fix. Workers retiring today will receive an average rate of return on their lifetime of payroll taxes of only 1.6 percent. Worse yet, individuals born today can expect to receive returns on their payroll taxes barely exceeding 0.9 percent assuming that the system isn't bankrupt by then.
                There is no simple smoking gun solution to solving our social security crisis. Fixing social security will require correlation and agreement between our legislator's, congress and multiple government services. This is not an issue that political parties may exploit in return for additional votes. This issue must be resolved for the continuing sustainability of the world's economic super power "America". Again, we must continue to stand united through tough times to lead our nation into a better future for centuries of generations to come.

                {"commentId":2200816,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"m-houglin"}
                  Reply#58 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:46 PM EDT
                  {"commentId":2200833,"authorDomain":"Peter17"}

                  I am not in the upper 10% of tax payers by any stretch of the imagination. You might be surprised to learn that the upper 10% of tax payers are projected to pay 73.7% of all individual income tax in 2008, including capital gains and dividends. I believe that is a higher percentage than ever before, including under Clinton.

                  That's right, 3 out of every 4 dollars of income tax is paid by the upper 10% of tax payers (what some might call the rich). That group is pretty much paying for the rest of us to live here and enjoy our freedoms. Grow up and quit whining. We have serious problems as a nation to address and pointing fingers won't help.

                  {"commentId":2200833,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"Peter17"}
                    Reply#59 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:49 PM EDT
                    {"commentId":2200899,"authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}

                    Exactly where are you getting those numbers from, Peter? It is my understanding that George W. Bush's tax cuts for THE RICH lowered their tax burden to record low levels as well as increasing the gap between THE RICH and the average American wage earner.

                    http://blogs.wsj.com/informedreader/2007/04/15/americas-tax-burden-shifts-downward/

                    April 15, 2007, 5:19 pm
                    America's Tax Burden Shifts Downward

                    The tax burden in the U.S. is shifting away from the rich, to the point where in a few years it could change from being progressive to effectively flat, a new study says. The study, published in the Journal of Economic Perspectives by economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez, examined how all U.S. taxes have affected Americans at each income level since the 1960s, the Boston Globe's Christopher Shea writes. (Update: Some readers have since pointed out that on our editorial pages Ari Fleischer comes to the opposite conclusion.)

                    They find that the tax rates faced by the wealthiest Americans have fallen, having also recently shown that the top 1% of American earners got a greater share of national income in 2005 than at any time since the 1920s. In 1960, nominally high income-tax rates were offset by far more deductions than exist today. However, corporate and estate taxes back then hurt the wealthiest more than they do now, especially those in the 100th percentile, or the richest 1% of American earners.

                    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-06-13-greenspan-gap_x.htm

                    Posted 6/13/2005 8:43 PM Updated 6/13/2005 10:05 PM
                    Greenspan: U.S.' rich-poor gap may threaten stability
                    By Peter Grier, The Christian Science Monitor
                    WASHINGTON — The income gap between the rich and the rest of the U.S. population has become so wide, and is growing so fast, that it might eventually threaten the stability of democratic capitalism itself.

                    Is that a liberal's talking point? Sure. But it's also a line from the recent public testimony of a champion of the free market: Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan.

                    {"commentId":2200899,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}
                      #59.1 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:00 PM EDT
                      {"commentId":2201520,"authorDomain":"Peter17"}

                      Just because the gap increased does not mean that the rich are not paying a higher percentage of the total tax bill.

                      We are a market based economy, and job salaries are market based as well. I read in several more recent articles than the two quoted above that the major reason for an increased gap between higher and lower incomes is not because of the very rich. There are too few of them to make that much difference. Who cares what a CEO, movie star, baseball player makes?? Good for them, I say - that's the American dream.

                      The articles talk about a shortage in the country of engineers, mathematicians, computer programers, and other highly skilled professional as well as highly skilled blue collar workers. These salaries have been rising far faster than those in less skilled jobs. This, they claim, is what is driving the increase in the salary gap.

                      Today on the news there was an interview with a corporate CEO. His point was that his company had no problem finding the lower skilled workers that he needs. He was not able to find mechanics, welders, heavy equipment operators, and the skilled professionals needed to keep his company viable in the U.S. and so is being forced to move operations overseas. He also is using automation and Lean manufacturing to eliminate the need for many lower skilled jobs to help his company stay competitive.

                      We need to find a way to get those with either limited skills or skills no longer needed the training and education to be qualified for the more highly paid jobs that corporations now find open. No silver bullet to be sure, but in the long run it is the best way to bring back our economic strength.

                      {"commentId":2201520,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"Peter17"}
                        #59.2 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:29 PM EDT
                        {"commentId":2201691,"authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}

                        The articles I posted are from 2007 and 2005. I posted the 2007 article because it is the most recent data available. I posted the 2005 article to show that the gap began increasing over three years ago and it is still increasing today. Here's another more recent article to prove my point but it's also based on the most recent available data from 2003 to 2005.

                        http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070807171936.htm

                        Wealth Gap Is Increasing, Study Shows

                        ScienceDaily (Aug. 9, 2007) — The rich really are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, a new University of Michigan study shows.

                        The study---the most recent available analysis of long-term wealth trends among U.S. households---is based on data from the Panel Study of Income Dynamics, conducted by the U-M Institute for Social Research (ISR) since 1968.

                        Over the last 20 years, the net worth of the top two percentile of American families nearly doubled, from $1,071,000 in 1984 to $2,100,500 in 2005. But the poorest quarter of American families lost ground over the same period, with their 2005 net worth below their 1984 net worth, measured in constant 2005 dollars.

                        The poorest ten percent of families actually had a negative net worth---more liabilities than assets. The poorest 5 percent of American households had a negative net worth of a little more than $1,000 in 1984, compared to nearly $9,000 in 2005.

                        None of this is due to the lack of skilled labor. I have friends who went back to school after being laid off to learn skills to land better jobs. They wasted their money. One, for example, studied networking at a DeVry. He paid thousands of dollars -- all wasted. The jobs you mention are being outsourced before applicants can even locate them. My friend is still working in a restaurant and still looking for his first networking job -- over three years after completing his course of study.

                        To say the gap isn't due to the rich getting richer is to ignore the very definition of the increasing wealth gap. It's absolutely preposterous.

                        BTW, I notice you still haven't provided any information to back up your claims.

                        {"commentId":2201691,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}
                          #59.3 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:55 PM EDT
                          {"commentId":2201794,"authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}

                          Here's something to explode your tax myth too:

                          http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/08/washington/08tax.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

                          Tax Cuts Offer Most for Very Rich, Study Says
                          By EDMUND L. ANDREWS
                          Published: January 8, 2007

                          WASHINGTON, Jan. 7-- Families earning more than $1 million a year saw their federal tax rates drop more sharply than any group in the country as a result of President Bush's tax cuts, according to a new Congressional study.

                          The study, by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, also shows that tax rates for middle-income earners edged up in 2004, the most recent year for which data was available, while rates for people at the very top continued to decline.

                          Based on an exhaustive analysis of tax records and census data, the study reinforced the sense that while Mr. Bush's tax cuts reduced rates for people at every income level, they offered the biggest benefits by far to people at the very top -- especially the top 1 percent of income earners.

                          Though tax cuts for the rich were bigger than those for other groups, the wealthiest families paid a bigger share of total taxes. That is because their incomes have climbed far more rapidly, and the gap between rich and poor has widened in the last several years.

                          So the reason behind the increase in taxes paid by the rich has nothing to do with tax rates. It is completely due to the MASSIVE increase in wealth for the top one percent that Bush references in this quote:

                          This is an impressive crowd -- the haves and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite; I call you my base.
                          -- GEORGE W. BUSH, speech to Al Smith Dinner for charity, Oct. 20, 2000
                          {"commentId":2201794,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}
                            #59.4 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:07 PM EDT
                            {"commentId":2201965,"authorDomain":"Peter17"}

                            Hugh, I really don't care how much money Oprah made last year, or that Bill Gates is worth $50 Billion or so (nice he is giving most to charity), or what any other rich person gets, as long as they pay appropriate taxes on what they earn.

                            My salary, before I retired, was based on my capability, my worth to the corporation, my performance. It had no relevance to what our CEO, CFO or any other Board Member made. If I didn't feel I was being fairly compensated I could have gone to work for someone else.

                            The key here is that because they made more, does not mean that I made less. Warren Buffett (world's richest man) takes a salary, I believe, of $1 per year. That does not mean that they take the salary he could have gotten and given it to other workers. It would likely be added to their company profits. So workers do not loose anything because of the compensation packages of their leaders. The shareholders do.

                            That does not mean that they shouldn't be sensitive to business conditions and do something similar to what GM did today and eliminated their cash performance bonuses for management for 2008.

                            {"commentId":2201965,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"Peter17"}
                              #59.5 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:30 PM EDT
                              {"commentId":2202080,"authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}

                              Here is the most recent data I could find on current distribution of federal tax. It is from The Tax Policy Center, Urban Institute and Brookings Institution.

                              The average effective tax rate for all federal tax paid by the highest ten percent is 27.4 percent. You can find the rest of the figures at the link.

                              http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?DocID=1390

                              Whether that percentage for all federal tax paid actually equates to the estimated 73.7% of all income tax paid in 2008 as you claim is highly unlikely, IMO. Even if it does that only proves the fact that the wealth gap in America has expanded to the point where the top wage earners, who were paying over somewhere over 30% effective tax rate in 1996 for all federal taxes prior to Bush's tax cuts for the rich are now making SO much more that even with a decrease in tax rates in their favor they're still paying most of the net tax revenue.

                              http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/tax/effective_rates.pdf

                              Either way, I'd much rather take the HUGE increase in wealth the top percentile has garnered under their patron, Bush, along with a lower effective tax rate, than try to subsist with all the increases in prices from food to fuel to energy to you name it that the middle class is saddled with while paying a HIGHER effective tax rate. It's upside down and just as I said, the rich are FAR richer and the middle and lower income classes are poorer, and they are being squeezed and left behind due to Bush's insane, reckless economic policies.

                              So PLEASE don't make me feel sorry for those rich folks who are getting richer every day while the rest of us struggle harder than ever to make ends meet.

                              PS Isn't the internet wonderful?! I've searched and provided information to back up my claims. Where is yours?

                              PPS You responded while I was researching data. This has nothing to do with what Oprah or Bill Gates or Warren Buffet make or are worth. This has to do with the fact that those people and thousands more like them are benefiting from Bush's insane economic policies, large lending institutions are insulated from losses by bail outs that the Bush fed passes out like candy to favored children, while the rest of us are left to either sink or swim -- and if we sink we might as well just drown because there won't be any of that sort of help coming our way. They're too big to fail. We're too small to help.

                              The bottom line is, Bush's economic policies are upside down and we can all see the results of that in the dismal economic situation they've caused in America today.

                              Have fun reading the data. I'm through reading your conjecture and hyperbole.

                              Goodnight.

                              {"commentId":2202080,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}
                                #59.6 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:45 PM EDT
                                {"commentId":2202136,"authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}

                                Oh, I missed the part about GM eliminating their cash performance bonuses -- why would they get them with the performance they've put in? Is running the world's largest auto maker into the ground deserving of a bonus? What kind of bonus do they have set up for the thousands of workers they're putting on the unemployment line? And what about the rest of GM's executive compensation? Something tells me the head honchos are going to do just fine -- as they drive by the ever lengthening unemployment lines in their limousines.

                                {"commentId":2202136,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}
                                  #59.7 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:54 PM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  {"commentId":2200856,"authorDomain":"joesmythe"}

                                  US is on verge of financial collapse. Democrats are happy to do nothing and make us suffer to take back the White-house. Pelosi and crew are some real sickos that need to hanged for treason.

                                  Bush is like a deer in head lights. Nothing is going on between his ears.

                                  Bernake is a traitor to his country and just helping out his Wall Street buddies while they sell off America's prime assets at a discount thanks to a worthless dollar.

                                  The greenies are willing to bring us financial ruin by strangling us further with high gas prices to "save" us from Global Warming. Meanwhile China and India continue unabated with growing economies that are taking our jobs.

                                  Obama wants to tax investment higher to further slow economic growth and innovation, and punish small business owners.

                                  McCain is a free trader and will allow jobs to continue to leave the country to lower wage places.

                                  Is there anybody left who really cares about America?

                                  {"commentId":2200856,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"joesmythe"}
                                  • 1 vote
                                  Reply#60 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:52 PM EDT
                                  {"commentId":2200912,"authorDomain":"tony-irizarry"}

                                  Haha. What a bunch of idiots the American people are. They elect then re-elect a total moron who caters to business and to hell with the working class. Then, we have two more moronic business focused candidates running for prez this year, three if Hillary were still running, and the people are all excited about them because they say change will come. When will all you idiots learn they only care about themselves, their careers, and their own pocketbooks?
                                  If someone like Ron Paul comes along and proposes real radical changes, you all run into the corners and cower like little girls. Go ahead, vote for McSame, vote for Barack, and hope Hillary somehow makes a comeback, cause you'll all have much the same gouging of America, and you'll all be saying the same thing in four years. Sickening!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                  {"commentId":2200912,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"tony-irizarry"}
                                    Reply#61 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:02 PM EDT
                                    {"commentId":2200925,"authorDomain":"chamie1"}

                                    D

                                    So we can personally hold you to take responsibility for the poor choice you made in electing Bush. If it's all about personal responsibility and not about being completely duped then I feel you owe me an apology. You are obviously one of those people who see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear and are ruled by the principle if it ain't happening to me then I don't care. What a sad existence. I bet you have a lot of friends (sarcasm)!! Money can't hold your hand on your death bed. Look at Leona.........poor lady only had her dogs to love her!! I feel sorry for you.

                                    {"commentId":2200925,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"chamie1"}
                                      Reply#62 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:05 PM EDT
                                      {"commentId":2200959,"authorDomain":"hanloncorp"}

                                      I thought that the Federal Reserve was supposed to stop things like this. Oh yea, thats right, the international (money robbers) bankers own the Federal Reserve. WAKE UP PEOPLE, LOBBY CONGRESS TO REPEAL THE FEDERAL RESERVE!!!!

                                      {"commentId":2200959,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"hanloncorp"}
                                        Reply#63 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:11 PM EDT
                                        {"commentId":2200997,"authorDomain":"m-houglin"}

                                        Side Note:

                                        How to fix the big oil companies.

                                        No, It's not the individual gas stations or franchises charging the big bucks for gas, it is the legal (by definition) monopoly of the top 5 oil companies. They are price fixing by using the wholesale price on the global futures market.

                                        This market is NOT regulated by our government. Interesting enough, this market is traded in US dollars $$$!. So, how do we get more buying power and knock the big five off their pedestal? Every employer across our fine nation should offer "fleet" fuel cards to every employee. We can then ban together to buy fuel on the futures market currently only available to large corporations or government institutions.

                                        We can then source our best price on the futures market securing the best price globally. This will eliminate any bias in purchasing power based on the market value of the US dollar and foreign markets. Our Nation is great in many aspects, if we ban together (a modern day Boston Tea Party!) we can take control of a market with no upper end in sight. WE CAN GIT R DONE!

                                        This is primarily due to one simple fact. We remain to consume and purchase more petroleum than any other nation ON EARTH. If your still not convinced, simply discuss this idea with financial experts familiar with global futures energy markets. ENRON failed also, so can the big top 5!

                                        Okay, enough psycho babbling, want proof? We all do. The classic supply and demand cure of oil is no longer a cure. It is a serious of sharp stair steps. This will not make sense with anyone having any knowledge of basic economics and supply and demand.

                                        The oil companies argue that this is simply a supply and demand issue. I say horse@!$%#! There are no supply and demand curves to validate their claims, only the infamous "stair step" model. The is the best example of a supply and demand curve indicative of an uncontrolled illegal monopoly by any standard US definition.

                                        Still not convinced, while the oil companies are making record profits, a small country in Abu Dhabi, part of the united arab emirates, is building massive man made islands representing maps of the earth! See more below from the Wikipedia! This is where your hard earned dollars are going! No that I have your attention, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!

                                        Abu Dhabi (city)
                                        From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                                        (Redirected from Abu Dhabi)
                                        Jump to: navigation, search
                                        "Abu Dhabi" redirects here. For the emirate of the same name, see Abu Dhabi (emirate).
                                        Abu Dhabi أبو ظبي — city — City of Abu Dhabi

                                        Abu Dhabi's skyline from Marina Mall

                                        Flag

                                        Abu DhabiLocation of Abu Dhabi in the UAE Coordinates: 24°28′N 54°22′E / 24.467, 54.367 Emirate Abu Dhabi Government - Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan Area - Total 67,340 km² (26,000.1 sq mi) Population (2007) - Total 1,463,491 - Density ² (761.3/sq mi) Abu Dhabi (Arabic: أبو ظبي‎ transliteration: abū ẓābī, literally Father of gazelle) is the capital and second most populous city in the United Arab Emirates (UAE), after Dubai. It is also the seat of government of the emirate of Abu Dhabi. Abu Dhabi lies on a T-shaped island jutting into the Persian Gulf from the central western coast. Approximately 1,000,000 people live in Abu Dhabi as of 2008, of whom 80% were expatriates. One of the world's largest producers of oil, Abu Dhabi has actively attempted to diversify its economy in recent years through investments in financial services and tourism. Abu Dhabi is ruled by Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan, who is also the President of the UAE.

                                        NOW, The sad news, by the time you finishing reading this, I wil be assasinated! So cary on my initial work. I will love and miss my family dearly. Do not give up the fight for the ghost of yesterday!

                                        {"commentId":2200997,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"m-houglin"}
                                          Reply#64 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:18 PM EDT
                                          {"commentId":2201093,"authorDomain":"chamie1"}

                                          David,

                                          I wonder what kind of business you inherited from your parents? Many of the people I know in your "cushy" position either got something handed to them or knew people who knew people who somewhere along the way helped them. Not everyone has that. If on the other hand you worked hard and saved then good for you. I'm glad you never had a hardship like losing your job and not being able to attain another one. I'm glad your wife never got cancer which depleted your savings and kept her from working. I'm glad not of your children (if you have them) every had a serious disease which wasn't completely covered by your insurance. I also hope that the company who builds your house doesn't go bankrupt, that your bank doesn't get taken over by the FDIC and that you don't have too much money in equities right now. My husband joined the National Guard to help him pay for college. I got college loans because my mom worked in sales and my dad was in construction and didn't make enough to pay for me and my siblings college. My husband and I did run up credit card debt to help pay for gas and food while in getting our degrees but put one of our checks towards paying them off when we got REAL jobs. After paying off our credit cards we saved 10% for a home downpayment. We sold our house after 5 years and made a good amount of money and put that toward a home closer to our family so have more support for our children. We're in our mid-thirties and feel very blessed to have been able to pay off our credit cards, auto loans, and college loans and now only have our mortgage to worry about and have enough equity in our home that we're not upside down even with the home prices in our area having dropped $50,000-$60,000 over the past year. We bought a home for 1/2 of what the realtor and bank said we were approved for because we are conservative (with our money..........not our politics). We were lucky enough to get decent jobs that offered good matching for our 401K's so we have a good start on retirement, have been able to put money back for our 1 and 4 year olds college savings, and have 6 months of expenses in the bank for emergencies. But I know that anywhere along the way if ONE THING had gone wrong we would not be where we are today. I understand that bad things sometimes happen to good people and it's called empathy to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes and realize that not everything is always black and white and rather than BRAG (which it kind of seemed like you were doing) about how great your life is, you might show a little bit of compassion for your fellow Americans who might not have been so blessed. I'm thankful that my husband got a good job out of college. I thank God everyday that my husband wasn't laid off after we decided to buy our first home (which was right after 9-11 and there were many who were). I thank God I had two healthy babies who didn't require medical attention that wasn't covered by my insurance. I thank God we were able to sell our first house and didn't get stuck someplace we didn't want to live or coudln't find work. And I'm hopeful that the people in this country will see through the GOP lies and deception and elect someone with a different agenda than the current one. I think the Christian Right is such an ironic name for people who don't at all seem Christian to me and who have been so wrong.

                                          {"commentId":2201093,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"chamie1"}
                                          • 1 vote
                                          Reply#65 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:33 PM EDT
                                          {"commentId":2201556,"authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}

                                          Amy, IMO, you win the prize for best post of the day.

                                          We were fortunate enough to buy a house years ago and sell it at a profit before the housing market collapsed. We bought a house closer to our children and grandchildren.

                                          Life hasn't always been easy but we made do. My long-time employer sold our division of a large nationwide company back in 1994 and it took us years to recover. We did and I never forgot that lesson. Most of us are one setback away from financial ruin and, unfortunately, most of us never learn that until it happens to us.

                                          I love your last sentence on the "Christian Right". It's the way I've always felt but I could never put it in words as well as you did. Bush has cynically used religion just as he's cynically used every other means he and Rove and Cheney could think of for their own benefit, with little or no thought for the effect it would have on our country and our people, and just look at where they've led us.

                                          Best to you and yours and to everyone else who is struggling to stay above water. Please, America, don't make the same mistake again in November.

                                          {"commentId":2201556,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}
                                            #65.1 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:34 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            {"commentId":2201133,"authorDomain":"steve-sue"}
                                            crap-O-laDeleted
                                            {"commentId":2201191,"authorDomain":"m-houglin"}

                                            GOD DID NOT RUN NOR BE ELECTED FOR PRESIDENT! THIS COUNTRY IS NOW RUN BY SATAN (Cheney) AND FRIENDS! This counrty is now longer "One nation under God"! Jusk ask our supreme courts. They will agree! Amy, I am epathetic to your past. Do not get fooled by false profits!

                                            Bush has drafted legislation placing a tax on the divine churches of America!

                                            {"commentId":2201191,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"m-houglin"}
                                              Reply#67 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:48 PM EDT
                                              {"commentId":2201497,"authorDomain":"m-houglin"}

                                              More boring research...

                                              Does anyone know that the Bush family is involved in a "Superfund" investment. This investment is equivalent to almost 10% of the US GDP. That's right, trillions of dollars ;-> This fund is pertaining to none other than "petroleum"!

                                              Imagine that, wow, just one minute! Cheney and many of our fine elected congressman are on the bandwagon too! Now, tell me what you think is going on with "America"!

                                              News flash and six months from now, Our stock markets are once again crashing! Where is all the money going? Not under our mattresses. Simply investigate the connections and links above!

                                              {"commentId":2201497,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"m-houglin"}
                                                Reply#68 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:27 PM EDT
                                                {"commentId":2201528,"authorDomain":"m-houglin"}

                                                And You Thought They Were Only "Minor" Crooks

                                                (The History of the Greatest Heist(S) in World History -

                                                As It/They Unfold)

                                                - Part 3 - A Partial List of Beneficiaries - By Nolan K. Anderson We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. Aesop ...
                                                "We'll do what we goddamn well please"…… George Bush White house Aide... Synopsis:

                                                President Reagan created a huge secret fund to be used to undermine the Russian currency during the later part of the cold war. The fund was created by the US Treasury by offering steeply discounted 20 year bonds to over 2oo European banks at 7.5 percent interest. The original amount of this secret fund was 27.5 TRILLION DOLLARS! The original purpose of the fund was to debase the ruble and thereby ensure and hasten the demise of the Soviet Union.

                                                "After the Cold War ended, the money was placed in overseas accounts, Wanta was appointed legal guardian of the fortune by President Reagan with the understanding it be returned to the American people to be used for schools, roads and even infrastructure improvements in Louisiana to bolster the inadequate levee system.[1]

                                                Reagan did not make his Vice President, George Bush Sr., privy to the agreement, (for reasons) which shall become apparent. However, Bush did learn of the fund, apparently through his CIA contacts.

                                                In 1993 Leo Wanta began to talk about the existence of the fund. Wiley Willy Clinton had his own reasons for not wanting information about the fund to become common knowledge ("But when Bush senior and Clinton took over the reins of the White House, according to Wanta, things changed, as the vast sum of money was treated more like their own personal slush fund instead of property of the American people".)[1] so Clinton sent Wanta with FBI head, William Sessions, on a "spurious mission" to Switzerland to arrest a well-known federal fugitive, Marc Rich, on tax evasion and money laundering charges. Rich was notified of his impending arrest by the Mossad or the CIA so he fled Switzerland before Sessions and Wanta arrived. However, when Wanta and Sessions arrived in Switzerland, Wanta was immediately arrested by Swiss authorities and held in prison for 134 days. He was released through the intervention of former Israeli Prime Minister, Yitzak Rabin and, who was himself assassinated in 1995. No US effort was made on Wanta's behalf except for getting him re-arrested once he was returned to the United States.

                                                Sessions returned to the US without either Marc Rich or Leo Wanta and was soon fired by Clinton without explanation:

                                                "The day before the murder of Foster, the Director of the FBI, William Sessions, was sacked by Clinton. Sessions had in place an elite team, he believed were above reproach, investigating the high-level treasonous criminality of Bush/Clinton/Greenspan/Weinberger and related culprits".[3]

                                                Wanta was returned to the United States and was immediately re-arrested in New York. The federal judge before whom he was arraigned, threw the charges out and released Wanta. However, Wanta was re-arrested on the steps of the federal court house in New York on false charges of property tax evasion in Wisconsin. At the same time, the CIA circulated the rumor in the European financial community that Wanta was dead thereby opening the vault doors protecting this 27.5 Trillion dollar fortune to the various parasites both within and without the government who were waiting to start nibbling away at the theft of the fund.

                                                Act 1, Scene 3 (Zug, Switzerland, 1993):

                                                "After Wanta was framed and put in jail, reports linking Hillary Clinton to dipping into the Wanta-controlled accounts were recently verified by overseas investigators.

                                                (Wanta was ordered) to give Vince Foster $250 million dollars earmarked for the Children's Fund. It took . . . A few days to make the proper transactions of roughly $81 million each and then Foster left with the money for Washington.

                                                Investigators claim the First Lady traveled to Grenada, ordering a bank transfer from Bank Crozier Limite, Grand Anse P.O. Box 1005, St George's Grenada, West Indies.

                                                Although the amount Clinton pilfered is unknown, estimates are she withdrew approximately $250 million from a Leo Wanta-controlled account, an account to be transferred to the U.S. Treasury listed under Marvelous Investment Limited, bank account number A/C 374-250."[1]

                                                Below is a Partial Listing of Pilferers of The American People's 27.5 Trillion Dollar Trust Fund Taken From Leo Wanta's Notes:[1]

                                                Name of Pilferer Account Reference Remarks Amount Stolen from US Trust Fund

                                                First Financial Services Ltd:
                                                890812

                                                Five billion dollars… Total: 5,000,000,000

                                                Francis X Driscoll Trust:

                                                890810 Allegedly involves the Vatican and CIA Ops. Five hundred million dollars.

                                                Total: $500,000,000

                                                Hawaii National Bank Corporation Trust
                                                890812

                                                Two and a half billion dollars…… Total: $2,500,000,000

                                                Name of Pilferer Account Reference Remarks Amount Stolen from US Trust Fund

                                                International Financial Services Ltd:

                                                Fifty billion dollars

                                                Total: $50.000.000.000

                                                Martwell Investments Ltd.

                                                890807

                                                Allegedly Marc Rich [Reich], Israeli intelligence asset for money laundering.

                                                Two billion dollars

                                                Martwell Investments Ltd.
                                                890808

                                                890810 "

                                                " One hundred billion dollars

                                                Five hundred million dollars

                                                Total: Martwell Investment Trust, Ltd. Inc + Martwell Investments Ltd:

                                                Total:……$104,500,000,000

                                                *Pilgrim Investments 890810 Allegedly partially under the control of George H.W. Bush Five hundred million dollars

                                                *Pilgrim Investments
                                                890810 " Five hundred million dollars

                                                *Pilgrim Investments
                                                890811 " Five hundred million dollars

                                                *Pilgrim, Investments
                                                890811 " One hundred billion dollars

                                                *Pilgrim Investments
                                                890810 Sent to Jorqe

                                                [= George] Bush One billion dollars

                                                *Pilgrim Investments

                                                890811 Allegedly for narcotics and illegal weapons sales. Money laundering One hundred billion dollars

                                                *Pilgrim Investments
                                                890811 " Twenty-five billion dollars

                                                *Pilgrim Investments

                                                Twenty-five billion dollars

                                                *Pilgrim Investments

                                                Two and a half billion dollars

                                                *Pilgrim Investments….. Two and a half billion dollars

                                                Name of Pilferer Account Reference Remarks Amount Stolen from US Trust Fund

                                                *Pilgrim Investments, Inc. (Keith Bennett Group)
                                                890810

                                                One billion dollars

                                                *Pilgrim Investments Trading Account:
                                                890811

                                                Ten billion dollars

                                                *Total - Pilgrim Investments Outlets

                                                $277, 500,000000.

                                                Martwell Investments Ltd.

                                                890807

                                                Allegedly Marc Rich [Reich]

                                                Two billion dollars

                                                *Pinnacle Holdings/ Francis X Driscoll Atty Trust
                                                890810 CIA Ops. Five hundred million dollars

                                                *Total Pinnacle Holdings/Francis X Driscoll Atty Trust

                                                CIA Ops.

                                                Driscoll = Allegedly on behalf of Opus Dei/The Vatican Total:

                                                $26,500,000,000

                                                Prudential Bache Securities
                                                890805
                                                Total: $100,000,000,000

                                                Rocio Lopez Perez

                                                Total:

                                                $1,000,000,000

                                                Silverado Investment, Inc [Neil Bush)
                                                890815
                                                Total: $500,000,000

                                                Synergy Trust: Fifty billion dollars
                                                890811

                                                Total:

                                                $50,000,000,000 Total unknown recipients:

                                                Total:

                                                $121,500,000,000

                                                Wm. W. Wilson Atty Special Account/Trust Total: $12,000,000,000 Grand Total

                                                Total:

                                                $742,500,000,000

                                                Present Worth:

                                                $2,000,000,000,000

                                                "Some of the billions and billions of dollars of reputed wire transfers went for the beneficial interest of the Elder Bush, and his son Neil, an official of a CIA proprietary, disguised as Denver-based Silverado Savings & Loan Association. The S & L went under and Neil Bush should have been sent to prison for causing the downfall by reportedly misusing large amounts of federal-insured thrift agency funds. On the other hand, as accused in stories in the press in Spain, the Elder Bush and his sons George W. Bush [Texas Governor] and Jeb Bush [Florida] Governor and Jeb's wife are reportedly incriminated through huge money laundering of dope proceeds through banks owned by criminals in Spain. Dope proceeds reportedly from Columbia, Morocco, Portugal, and Italy. We publicized the quiet arrest in Chicago in January, 2000, of the reputed Bush family cocaine bank money laundry wizard, Giorgio Pelossi, a prominent Swiss accountant.

                                                The Elder Bush has been with the CIA since at least 1959, when he helped set up Zapata Petroleum Co., later called Zapata Offshore, with upwards of
                                                600 branches worldwide in international hot spots for the reported purpose of gathering intelligence for the spy agency. Some news sources have contended that Zapata's offshore drilling rigs, located beyond the U.S. jurisdiction limit, are reported centers for transferring large quantities of illicit drugs and other contraband.

                                                Some of the reportedly huge secret wire transfers were for, or with the Elder Bush jointly with the Queen of England, through her accounts in the British Monarchy's Coutts Bank, London. The secret account numbers are contained in some of the more than 300 apparently authentic Federal Reserve wire transfer records. The British Monarchy has long been accused as being worldwide kingpins in the narcotics traffic, going back 150 years starting with the Opium Wars in China.

                                                Others of the more than 300 documents, relate to a situation started in the 1970s, when the Elder Bush arranged to overthrow the Iraqi government by political assassination. Bush helped install Saddam Hussein. Others of those and other documents relate to the decade, 1980 to 1990, when the Elder Bush was a secret private business partner of Saddam Hussein in extorting billions of dollars per year from the weak sheikdoms in the Persian Gulf---oil industry kick-backs, to supposedly assure security. A little-known Federal lawsuit in Chicago dealt with the secret partner of Saddam Hussein, namely George Herbert Walker Bush. I and my associates were the only journalists attending the federal appeals court hearing. I later did an exclusive group of interviews with the participants, confirming that Bush and Saddam were private business partners in extortion of the sheikdoms".[2]

                                                Intermission:

                                                This act gives new meaning to the alleged George H.W. Bush comment that, "if the people knew what we have done, they would hang us from the nearest lamp post". This act also helps us understand a comment by one of George H.W. Bush's close friends who once said, "Neil Bush was into bank fraud, Jeb was into political fraud, George W. was into corporate fraud, Marvin was into general fraud and George Bush Sr. was into them all". Unfortunately, we are only beginning to glimpse the true character of the players in the drama. We will see further inside our players as this story
                                                (history) unfolds.

                                                References:

                                                [1] Fitzgerald Probe Headed To Switzerland, Marc Rich, Vince Foster And At Least A Trillion Dollars Of Stolen U.S. Treasury Money By The Bush- Clinton Mob; Treasury Agent Leo Wanta, Sent To Arrest Rich, Tells What Really 'Went Down' In Switzerland.

                                                The Arctic Beacon By Greg Szymanski 15 Apr 2006

                                                [2] GREENSPAN REPORTEDLY BRIBES AND AIDS BUSH IN GOLD SWINDLES, Part One by Sherman H. Skolnick

                                                [3] Greenspan Reportedly Bribes & Aids Bush In Various Matters - Part 4 by Sherman H. Skolnick

                                                3-2-00

                                                Nolan K. Anderson is a retired engineer and a veteran of Korea who was once a "conservative" until he found there was nothing left to conserve and as a veteran hates to see a tour in Korea go to waste. (He may be reached at nkanders@bellsouth.net ).

                                                {"commentId":2201528,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"m-houglin"}
                                                • 1 vote
                                                Reply#69 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:30 PM EDT
                                                {"commentId":2201918,"authorDomain":"m-houglin"}

                                                Lewis v. the U.S., #80-5905

                                                {"commentId":2201918,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"m-houglin"}
                                                  Reply#70 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:24 PM EDT
                                                  {"commentId":2201959,"authorDomain":"chamie1"}

                                                  Hugh,

                                                  I appreciate your posts as well. They are always thoughtful, factual (and backed up unlike so many other "facts" posted) and enjoyable. I actually read these posts because I'm encouraged by people like you who are intelligent and bring real perspective.

                                                  Thanks,

                                                  Amy

                                                  {"commentId":2201959,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"chamie1"}
                                                    Reply#71 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:29 PM EDT
                                                    {"commentId":2202148,"authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}

                                                    "Ditto", Amy! :D

                                                    {"commentId":2202148,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}
                                                      #71.1 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:57 PM EDT
                                                      Reply
                                                      {"commentId":2202073,"authorDomain":"cswharton2001"}

                                                      This was possibly the most MISLEADING ARTICLE I have ever read! The Fed HAS NOT BAILED OUT FREDDIE OR FANNIE! Of course if everyone panics and starts withdrawing their money they will eventually have to bail them out!

                                                      I don't know who's worse these days:
                                                      The news media with their misleading articles.
                                                      Senators who send e-mails which cause bank runs.
                                                      or
                                                      The people who are stupid enough to panic and run on the banks!!!

                                                      Look people.......Markets go up, and markets go down..........if they don't do this on a pretty regular basis, we get what's called stagflation. We have bear markets, and we have bull markets.........what's in between is stagflation.

                                                      If you want to know who's really causing the problems, not just here but around the world, look to the middle east and venezuela oil barons! There is absolutely no reason for the increase in oil prices other than the fact that they (OPEC) are raising them. And don't hand me that crap about supply and demand.........demand is down, which means prices should be down. Somebody is MANIPULATING the price of oil.............would anyone here put it past, Chevaz or Ahmedinejhad?

                                                      {"commentId":2202073,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"cswharton2001"}
                                                        Reply#72 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:44 PM EDT
                                                        {"commentId":2202211,"authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}

                                                        The Fed bailing out Fannie and Freddie is built into the system. They are special entities. If they make money their investors make money. If they lose money, we pay. As Paul Krugman put it in his most recent column, "Heads they win. Tails we lose."

                                                        http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/14/opinion/14krugman.html

                                                        Fannie, Freddie and You
                                                        By PAUL KRUGMAN
                                                        Published: July 14, 2008

                                                        And now we've reached the next stage of our seemingly never-ending financial crisis. This time Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are in the headlines, with dire warnings of imminent collapse. How worried should we be?

                                                        Well, I'm going to take a contrarian position: the storm over these particular lenders is overblown. Fannie and Freddie probably will need a government rescue. But since it's already clear that that rescue will take place, their problems won't take down the economy.

                                                        Furthermore, while Fannie and Freddie are problematic institutions, they aren't responsible for the mess we're in.

                                                        Here's the background: Fannie Mae — the Federal National Mortgage Association — was created in the 1930s to facilitate homeownership by buying mortgages from banks, freeing up cash that could be used to make new loans. Fannie and Freddie Mac, which does pretty much the same thing, now finance most of the home loans being made in America.

                                                        The case against Fannie and Freddie begins with their peculiar status: although they're private companies with stockholders and profits, they're "government-sponsored enterprises" established by federal law, which means that they receive special privileges.

                                                        The most important of these privileges is implicit: it's the belief of investors that if Fannie and Freddie are threatened with failure, the federal government will come to their rescue.

                                                        This implicit guarantee means that profits are privatized but losses are socialized. If Fannie and Freddie do well, their stockholders reap the benefits, but if things go badly, Washington picks up the tab. Heads they win, tails we lose.

                                                        Such one-way bets can encourage the taking of bad risks, because the downside is someone else's problem. The classic example of how this can happen is the savings-and-loan crisis of the 1980s: S.& L. owners offered high interest rates to attract lots of federally insured deposits, then essentially gambled with the money. When many of their bets went bad, the feds ended up holding the bag. The eventual cleanup cost taxpayers more than $100 billion.

                                                        But here's the thing: Fannie and Freddie had nothing to do with the explosion of high-risk lending a few years ago, an explosion that dwarfed the S.& L. fiasco. In fact, Fannie and Freddie, after growing rapidly in the 1990s, largely faded from the scene during the height of the housing bubble.

                                                        Partly that's because regulators, responding to accounting scandals at the companies, placed temporary restraints on both Fannie and Freddie that curtailed their lending just as housing prices were really taking off. Also, they didn't do any subprime lending, because they can't: the definition of a subprime loan is precisely a loan that doesn't meet the requirement, imposed by law, that Fannie and Freddie buy only mortgages issued to borrowers who made substantial down payments and carefully documented their income.

                                                        So whatever bad incentives the implicit federal guarantee creates have been offset by the fact that Fannie and Freddie were and are tightly regulated with regard to the risks they can take. You could say that the Fannie-Freddie experience shows that regulation works.

                                                        In that case, however, how did they end up in trouble?

                                                        Part of the answer is the sheer scale of the housing bubble, and the size of the price declines taking place now that the bubble has burst. In Los Angeles, Miami and other places, anyone who borrowed to buy a house at the peak of the market probably has negative equity at this point, even if he or she originally put 20 percent down. The result is a rising rate of delinquency even on loans that meet Fannie-Freddie guidelines.

                                                        Also, Fannie and Freddie, while tightly regulated in terms of their lending, haven't been required to put up enough capital — that is, money raised by selling stock rather than borrowing. This means that even a small decline in the value of their assets can leave them underwater, owing more than they own.

                                                        And yes, there is a real political scandal here: there have been repeated warnings that Fannie's and Freddie's thin capitalization posed risks to taxpayers, but the companies' management bought off the political process, systematically hiring influential figures from both parties. While they were ugly, however, Fannie's and Freddie's political machinations didn't play a significant role in causing our current problems.

                                                        Still, isn't it shocking that taxpayers may end up having to rescue these institutions? Not really. We're going through a major financial crisis — and such crises almost always end with some kind of taxpayer bailout for the banking system.

                                                        And let's be clear: Fannie and Freddie can't be allowed to fail. With the collapse of subprime lending, they're now more central than ever to the housing market, and the economy as a whole.

                                                        Of course they can't be allowed to fail but at the very least the government could offer a life line to homeowners too, like they did with Bear Stearns bailout and the creation of a $200 billion bank overnight so other troubled lenders could belly up to the discount window.

                                                        And do you think oil prices just might also have something to do with Bush and Cheney's saber rattling? They are "oil men" after all, and their buddies and rich contributors are making record profits (and that's an understatement) since Bush and Cheney took over our government.

                                                        The off-shore drilling Bush is proposing, as a political stunt, IMO, is also cracking me up. Bush just wants to give his buddies an opportunity to suck the last few drops of the USA's 2% of world oil reserves out of the ground before he leaves office. Kind of a parting shot to the U.S. consumer who will think it's going to help (like McCain's gas tax holiday LOL) while in reality all it will help do is further line the pockets of our own home grown robber barons.

                                                        We don't have to look toward Chavez or Ahmadinejad or the Middle East. Unless you want to see prices double again due to more saber rattling.

                                                        {"commentId":2202211,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}
                                                          #72.1 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:11 AM EDT
                                                          Reply
                                                          {"commentId":2202153,"authorDomain":"chamie1"}

                                                          I've been saying that Ahmedinejhad would be a likely person to be heavily invested in this unregulated oil commodities because every time he farts or sneezes the price of oil goes up $10 per gallon. If I had that much power to effect prices I certainly would look for ways to benefit. There should be a way to find out WHO is invested in the oil commodities and to what extent they are invested. It would seem that it would be easy to determine the root of this problem. Also, if supply and demand were the case (which I agree with "damn tired of this" is not) then why would Mexico's gas be $2.50 and ours be approaching $4.50 (around Chicago). Mexico uses much less oil than America so it's not a supply/demand issue. Plus in interviews I've seen with every major oil executive and in OPEC interviews there is plenty of supply for the global market so there are other factors at work here and it shouldn't be rocket science to figure out who is pulling the strings.

                                                          {"commentId":2202153,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"chamie1"}
                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          Reply#73 - Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:57 PM EDT
                                                          {"commentId":2202282,"authorDomain":"Peter17"}

                                                          Mexico subsidizes gas for their citizens. A number of other countries do the same.

                                                          You are correct that today there is sufficient oil (and gas) in the world. The problem is that the supply has been relatively constant over the past few years. Declining production in the U.S., the North Sea, Mexico and others is offsetting additional production being brought on line.

                                                          At the same time, total demand worldwide has been increasing. This has caused the difference between what could be pumped (supply) and demand to shrink. When people who buy oil futures in the market look around, they don't see enough oil reserves being developed in the next few years to make up for both the decrease in existing reserves plus the increase in demand. At some point there will be more demand than supply and the price will go up significantly. There is also very little additional capacity now should their be a supply interruption of some kind. That is why they buy the futures contract anticipating future price increases.

                                                          That is why it makes sense for us (and others) to begin drilling wherever we think oil can be found. It will take years to develop the resource, but it is that future supply that traders are looking at.

                                                          {"commentId":2202282,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"Peter17"}
                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #73.1 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:21 AM EDT
                                                          {"commentId":2202462,"authorDomain":"cswharton2001"}

                                                          And, Chevaz and Ahmedjinejad know that, and that's why they keep opening thier big fat mouths. Their threats are fear mongering manipulations to increase the price of oil.

                                                          {"commentId":2202462,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"cswharton2001"}
                                                            #73.2 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:58 AM EDT
                                                            {"commentId":2204175,"authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}

                                                            Uh, Bush and CHENEY (in particular) were the ones that opened their fat mouths and started hyping fake "intelligence" to threaten and attack against Iran.

                                                            Doesn't that ring a bell? Is your memory that short? Or is America actually dumb enough to let these war-mongering maniacs conduct another unprovoked invasion and wholesale slaughter as they did in Iraq?

                                                            {"commentId":2204175,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"wh0cantell"}
                                                              #73.3 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:10 AM EDT
                                                              Reply
                                                              {"commentId":2203218,"authorDomain":"wizz220"}

                                                              Ok all I have a question. Now there has been a ton of stuff disscussed about housing this and that and banks. Now what about this:

                                                              Credit Card's

                                                              Is this whole mess taking that into account or is credit card faults comming to rear its ugly head soon.

                                                              {"commentId":2203218,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"wizz220"}
                                                                Reply#74 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:09 AM EDT
                                                                {"commentId":2204618,"authorDomain":"twatson3"}

                                                                Fairtax.org - The answer is not far away. Please sign up and support if you think this is a good idea.

                                                                {"commentId":2204618,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"twatson3"}
                                                                  Reply#75 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:59 AM EDT
                                                                  {"commentId":2205029,"authorDomain":"wizz220"}

                                                                  This was asked of Bernanke today in a Q&A at congress

                                                                  Why didnt the feds aka you step in and do something sooner.

                                                                  Bernanke side stepped the question and did not answer it.

                                                                  Here is the real reason on why he didnt do @!$%#.

                                                                  His good ol buddies at wall street where making millions of dollars hand over fist thats why. You will not see one wall streeter goto jail for fraud and yes there are a ton of wall streeters who should be going to jail for the fraudlient loans they did in the housing crisis.

                                                                  Bernanke also lied about fannie and freddie. Tell me this, do these 2 entities have the cash to back up the bad crap they did. The answer is NO, who is bailing them out now, us the tax payer.

                                                                  Again the reason the feds didnt do @!$%# is because they were protecting wall street. Where is the protecting of the regular person here in the USA. There isnt any yet they are losing their homes at the rate of 8,000 plus a month. It will be 2.5 million by the end of this year.

                                                                  Also fraud was uncovered during the Q&A that it was discovered that the payments that the home owners made to the bank(s) the bank with-held that payment just so that they can get more interests fees. Yet will we see those crooks and looters goto jail or lose their job. No we will not.

                                                                  Again its all a for the wall street and @!$%# the people.

                                                                  Feds do us all a favor to make things right, please change the constituion from

                                                                  We The People

                                                                  to

                                                                  We The WallStreet

                                                                  {"commentId":2205029,"threadId":"313230","contentId":"1667188","authorDomain":"wizz220"}
                                                                    Reply#76 - Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:43 AM EDT
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